You're listening to that music podcast with Bryson Tarbet, the curriculum designer and educational consultant behind that music teacher and the elementary music Summit. Each week, Bryson and his guests will dive into the reality of being an elementary music teacher and how music can truly be transformative in the lives of the students you serve. Show Notes and resources mentioned in this episode can be [email protected]
Hello everyone, and welcome back to that music podcast. I am really excited to dive into a really cool topic. Today, we have Alessandra Santa Guido here with us, and we're going to talk all about project based learning, specifically for middle school general music. So Alessandra, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I love this topic. I could talk about it forever and ever and ever. So thank you for giving me the space to do that. I'm so excited to chat tonight.
I am really excited to dive into this personally, because my I taught up to sixth grade, but we were at like, a weird middle school as a fifth and sixth grade school, so, like, there was a huge, like, even just like, a culture shift in, like, the what my students were kind of expecting. So projects were like, super lifesaver. And I, I can't wait to dive in deeper and hopefully help out some that might be at that upper, upper elementary level, but also that, you know, seventh and eighth grader kind of level. So before we get too far into it, can you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your experience in the middle school, General, music, arts, world.
Awesome. Yeah, so my, like you said, my name is Alessandra. I'm a K to grade eight teacher of the Arts. I'm based just outside of Toronto, Canada. So I am Canadian. I might use some different terminology than some people be used to hearing. And I teach pretty much every student at my school. I'm at a big, busy school, over 700 students. I used to see my intermediates, which are my grade sevens and eights, twice a week, so for 80 minutes. Now I see everyone for 40 minutes a week, and I mostly focus on music, but I also, depending on the year, I've done dance, I've done drama, I've done a little bit of everything. So this would have been my ninth year teaching. I'm actually on maternity leave right now. I just had my second baby. He's almost four months and so but otherwise, I've been at my school for a long time. I've tried lots of things I'm excited to get into tonight, like the lessons I've learned and how I've adjusted my teaching practice in order to best cater to my students, and what's really worked for me and just tried and true projects and ideas that I feel have worked in my favor? Yeah, I
can't wait to dive into that, because Middle School My parents are both retired middle school teachers, and you have to be a specific type of person to really thrive in that environment, just like as a person, but then only, like, the practical side of like, how we prepare our teachers that are licensed in such a broad range? Like, let's be honest, no one's teaching, no one's teaching middle school journal music. Like, so I there's, you know, I'm curious, you know, other than the kind of that aspect, why, you know, do you think of any reasons why teachers might struggle with the middle school age? Yeah,
I think it's no surprise. The probably the most challenging aspect would be challenging student behaviors, right? And that often comes from either a lack of buy in sometimes, if you are, you know, like in my role, for example, I'm not their homeroom teacher. I see them 40 minutes a week, right? And so having really strong relationships with my students and I have been at my school for multiple years, so that has definitely helped and worked in my favor, because I've built relationships with my students now, you know, since they were in grade two, now they're in grade seven or eight, so we do know each other. That's been a big factor. But I definitely think, you know, experiencing challenging behaviors or just help teaching students, or having them understand why music is valuable to begin with, right? And having that piece something that they understand and appreciate in order to move forward together.
Yeah, I let's Yeah. I'm gonna leave it at that. So before we get too far, we've all we've all been there, yeah, before we get too far into the weeds, can you give us, like, a high level definition of for you, at least, what is project based learning? Just so we're all on the same page for the rest of this conversation,
for sure. So to me, project based learning is a student centered approach, where students are at the center of their learning, and essentially they're going through the stages of the project, and as they do that, through that experience, they're developing their knowledge and their skill set through the active exploration in every stage of the project. So project based learning as well also. You go through the steps of it, but also emphasizes the creation of a tangible product at the end. So the focus is creating the product itself. But then as they go through those steps, they're able to expand on their learning and grow in their learning as well. The project is kind of the medium in which their learning happens. So
we talked a little bit about some of the challenges that we've seen in you know why it can be tricky to teach middle school. So I'm curious what you've noticed how project based learning addresses some of these challenges Absolutely.
So I find project based learning and some of the projects that I've done with my students, just an incredible vehicle to really increase engagement in my classroom. So I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but I actually did my bachelor's in music therapy. That was my first degree. I worked at a children's hospital for a little bit, and then I went back, did my Master's in my teaching degree all together. So that mindset kind of fuels a lot of my teaching practice, it's kind of where I came from. So when I approach project based learning, I'm really thinking about, how can I make this relevant for my students? How can I have them feel a sense of autonomy, where they feel like they're at the center of their learning, and then also, especially with this age group, they want to feel competent, like they want to feel like they're good at it, they understand it, and they're able to move forward. So those are actually like research supports that when we hit those three things, when we hit autonomy, competence and relatedness with our students, and we help them feel those three things that will increase their intrinsic motivation, that will increase their their want to participate, and their engagement in what you're doing right? And project based learning, can it address all three of those things? And because it does that, that in itself, it's the vehicle to increase engagement, increase your buy in, and hopefully decrease a lot of those challenging behaviors you you might be seeing in your classroom. Yeah,
and I've seen this, I've definitely seen this completely in practice. You know, I've had classes of students that were a little rough, a little rough around the edges, just, you know, needed a little extra, love little extra, but doing something like a project, I found oftentimes was really helpful, getting getting them engaged and getting them involved in music in a different way that for me was a little uncomfortable because it wasn't the typical like code, I let's do the things and then let's sing about it like it was definitely kind of a little bit of mindset, mindset shift for me, but I've seen, but I saw the success of the other side. So I would love to hear about some of your successes that you've seen. Can you give us an example of maybe one of your favorite PBL projects that you've used in the middle school classroom?
Yeah, and yeah. Actually, before I get into that, I think what you're saying is so interesting that there's this kind of gap between what we learn as educators and then what our students actually need. And you know, I encourage teachers to think about it from the lens that I need to meet my students where they're at. I need to, you know, love them for who they are and how they already show up in music. And then once I can build that relationship with them, which we can do through some of these projects, I'll get to it in a moment. Then we can move together and help them progress in their learning, and then give them some of these new experiences we want to give them as well, right? So it's a little bit of a shift, I think, in terms of, sometimes what we're taught, but it can, you know, it pays off tenfold. But in terms of a project, I have tons that I've done that I love. One I really love is a music themed podcast project that I've done with my students, and actually started this during the pandemic when I was teaching online, but I've continued it with a lot of my students, even now, in person. And essentially, you know, I lay out all the steps, but the main question I I give them is that you can do any topic you want. It just has to relate to music in some kind of way, like, that's That's it. You pick, pick something you're passionate about, pick something you want to learn more about. This is going to give you the space and the time to do that. Pick something you want to become an expert in, and then you're going to create a podcast episode being an expert in whatever topic you've chosen, as long as it relates to music. And so I often do my projects with this idea of freedom within structure. So the project itself is the structure. I give really clear deadlines, really clear expectations. I'm constantly giving them feedback. As we go along, we can get into that process a little bit more too, but essentially, they're they're choosing what they want to learn about, and then as we go through that process, I'm pushing them to think, to go further in their learning and their thinking. So I've had students do topics like music and mental health. I've had students do the history of the guitar. I've had students even do my top five favorite songs of the year, and then they're analyzing the different elements of music and the meaning behind it and what parts of the song. Song that they like, they're doing a full analysis on how they've ranked those songs. So there's so much to choose from. I've had students do like cultural pieces of music that they want to talk about and how it's representative of the culture that they're from. And it just, it's just such a beautiful example of when you give students the space to bring in their own interests and show up as their authentic selves in music. It it goes. It can surpass what you what you think they're able to do to give you, right? It can surpass what you might have assumed they would be able to produce for you, because now they're invested. Now they're showing themselves. It's relevant to them. And it just, it's a beautiful thing. I love it, yeah. And
I think sometimes as as music educators, we get way too focused on performance, even when it's not performance for like, a concert, like, just the act of, like, making music together and sharing music, like, totally important, don't get me wrong. But I think sometimes we focus all on that, and we don't do any of like, the we like touch on, the reflecting standards, like after a concert or something, right? We barely touch on, we don't really get to that deep level thinking about, like, why do we like these songs? Why? You know, you brought up so many good points, because you mentioned, like, bringing things in that they're listening to outside of the classroom, which is just a great way to instantly increase engagement. So I'm sure there are some teachers that are listening that are maybe they want to get started, or maybe they're like, I'm there's this never happening because they're just so overwhelmed, or they feel a little hesitant that it's going to be such a dramatic shift that it's just it's not going to work. So what advice would you give to those teachers that kind of have a little bit of overwhelm or just aren't quite sure it's going to work,
for sure. And like you said, the performance part of music is so integral to music education, like you definitely should do, you know, music making together. But I also, again, want to encourage teachers to think about, how can I allow multiple ways for my students to show up and to show success in my classroom, I've had, you know, a student who just performing is not their thing, right? And they want to do well, and they put their effort, their full effort, in, and just performing is not their zone of genius, right? So think of it when you introduce projects or some other written pieces or, I guess, less performance based aspects of music, you're really giving your students multiple ways to show their strengths and their learning, right aside from just being performance based. So I would say, if you're starting start simple, starts start small. You don't have to do this big, grand inquiry based project. If you don't feel comfortable with that yet, you can do, for example, I do a project with my grade sixes almost every year. It's called the meaning and music project. And essentially, we talk about how music shows up in our society, how it's integrated in our world. If we go through our day, where do we hear music? You know, we hear the national anthem. We might hear music when you go to dance class before you play in a hockey game, when you watch movies, when you are at the mall shopping, right? How is music integrated into our society? And then with that project, it's a quick, like, three week project I do with my students. Essentially, they pick one song that they feel is timeless or has had an impact on our society. I've had students pick, like, the Star Wars theme song, or we will rock you, or I had a student last year pick the music that happens at the beginning of every Disney movie, right? And so they talk about that and the impact of that, they analyze some of the elements, and then they create a poster around it. So I would say, start small. It doesn't need to be a big, grand thing. It can be short. Have clear expectations about what they should do in class one, what should they complete in class two, and when? What should be done by the end of class three, so that they can stay on track. Check in with your students each week as you go through each part of the project. I usually do a mini lesson based on what I'm expecting them to complete that class. So five minutes, I'm explaining it, explaining my expectation, and then I let them work while I go around and either help students one on one or in small groups, or give feedback along the way. So don't think it has to be this big. You know, grand thing. It can it can be small, but still have a lot of big impact.
That's a really great idea. I love that you you kind of got them thinking about the music that is in their life. Because what I've noticed with a lot of students is when I, like, I used, I used to do a project with my sixth graders, like a musical of my life. So basically, they create a story where the center of it could be truthful or not, and they kind of fill in the plot diagram, so there's multiple different sections, and then they have to find a song that help, that could be used to represent, that it could be, but the students, they will so many of them were like, I don't listen to music. I mean, I don't, I don't do that. I'm like, you don't. I'm like, I know you play baseball. You just play baseball and come. The silence when you're warming up, like, you don't do anything like that. No, we have some music. Like, okay, cool. Like, oh, you know, when you're playing Fortnite, you know, what are you? Well, I guess we listen to this music there too, you know? And it really gets me thinking that it kind of makes it very explicit that, like, hey, the music there is music in your life. You just aren't, you haven't, kind of categorized that as music, necessarily, or you don't even really think about it. It's just part of what you do, which is kind of the whole point, right? That music is so interwoven to what we do. So I love that. And I think that you bring up a really good point where giving very clear frameworks within that, not just we're gonna do this, but like, all right, by this day, you should have this done. By this day, it should look like this. One of my first kind of diving in head first into project based learning was during covid Because we couldn't do anything else. And I'll be honest, I was so. I'll be the first one to tell you, I was so just overwhelmed with everything. I was maybe 10 minutes ahead of everyone else, like the students in the lesson, so we were kind of planning it as we go, which, let's be very clear, is not how we should do this. So I love that you mentioned making it very clear, because hey, who would have thought when I tried it again into the next year and made it more specific like this, by this day, this, by this day, it worked better. Who would have thought, right? So I'm glad you brought that up
for sure. And again, it's that idea, like you can give students freedom to pick their topics, or freedom in terms of how they want to showcase their learning, but freedom within structure, right? We all thrive in structure, especially your students. You know, I have a toddler at home. She thrives in structure. And so giving those clear expectations is not only helpful for you, but it's really helpful for your students. And then when it comes to assessment, that's another big piece of it. So one mistake I made early on is, you know, I have have a time of the year where everyone's doing a project. You know, my grade four is five, six, sevens and eights. We're all doing a project. It's all going to be due at the same time. It was great for those couple weeks we were working on it. But then the problem is the deadline came, and I had hundreds of projects to mark, right? And so that was a hard lesson I had to learn. And so I've actually really adjusted how I assess to make it more manageable, especially when you're a teacher who teaches so many students. And so especially with these bigger projects, I with the stages I actually have marking that I do throughout. So instead of just one final mark, I'll mark, you know, the planning, I'll mark basically the rough copy, whatever that might look like, and then again, the final project, or the presentation, or whatever it is at the end. And so that for me, that ties into my curriculum, because I know it might be different for other people, but engaging in the creative process is a large part of my curriculum. So this is part of that, right? I always tell my students, your first idea should never be your final idea. You should be workshopping it. You should be trying new things. You should be applying feedback that either myself or your peers are giving you to make it the best version it can be. So when I assign the first stage, usually the first day, I'm introducing the product, the project, the second week we're working on whatever that first stage is, and then it's either due that day or it's due the following week, whatever week that stage is due is then I'll do my mini lesson for the next stage. I'll let students work, and then I'm checking in with them. And so as I'm checking in with them, I'm either writing anecdotal notes. Sometimes I do a quick you know, I do a plus, a check mark, or a minus, depending on if they're exceeding at expectations or approaching expectations. Or if it's a stage where I'm marking it. I sit with them, we go through it, and I mark it right in front of them, and I say, this is what you're doing. Well, this is what you're still missing. Here are some things you can think about, or what I think you should add to your final product to make it the best it can be. And this is a mark that reflects that. Do you agree? Do you not agree? So not only are you working with students and you're conferencing with them one on one, they're completely on the same page with how they're doing. You're completing marketing as you go, and you're giving them feedback. So that way, it's this, it's this wheel of creation that's happening.
I would to kind of go a little bit off script, because this is one area that I always struggled with, and I feel like I'm probably not the only one, which is when you're working with the student and you're kind of giving them one on one or smaller group support. Like, how do you make sure that, like, the rest of the classroom isn't going absolute bonkers, because I totally struggled with that. Or, like, how do you make sure they're actually working on something other than just, like, Hey, I'm going to be looking at it. Like, what are some strategies or some things that you've you've noticed that were helpful to just manage that
definitely, and I'm sure, as people are listening to me being like, EIA, okay, how are you marking while the rest of your kids are working? And some classes, it works better than others, right? Like, let's be real. But definitely some things that. I do is how we use technology is a big factor in how engaged my students are. So at my school, we only have a few devices for each class that's allocated, but my population is able to bring in a lot of tech. So if I know we're working on something we do, like bring your own tech, and that includes headphones. So the expectation is, you're sitting at your desk, your headphones are in. If they have headphones, the way that they can zone in, really, you know, increases, right? So that's a big factor. If they don't have headphones, I usually give them another alternative, like they could work in the corner of the classroom, or if there's a separate space or the hallway, or whatever it might be. But having them work individually is really integral, and having those headphones is really, really key. And I have very clear expectations on how they use their technology. It stays face up on their desk if they're not using it properly. The first time it gets put away, they realize very quickly they can't get anything done. I have also had students, you know, who really have a hard time staying on track. They work in physical proximity to me. So I'll have them, I'll give them a warning. I have very I give very minimal warnings, like I set my expectation. And again, I've taught my students for a while, so they know me. Once I've given you one warning, by the second time you're coming in, you're gonna sit with me for the remainder of that class, and I'm gonna check in with you. I'm gonna make sure you're on track and the next class. If you know you want the opportunity to work individually, then you know this is the expectation, right? And so it's definitely a work in progress, especially if you're new to a grade, or you're new to a class or new to your students, right? There's a sense of trust that needs to be built up that can only happen over time and experience together. But those are just some of the things that that I do awesome.
I think I I hope that helps other people do less chaos than I had. So I'm hoping that answer right there helps some people. So we are super excited. So as of work recording, we just opened up registration for the first ever middle school music Summit, which I have to say, I'm just so excited for everyone to see, but you are going to be giving a presentation all about project based learning at the summit on October 19. So for those people that might be interested in learning more, kind of, what can you give a little brief overview of, like, what they'll get out of that lesson or that training that they might we might not have touched on today
for sure. So we dive into a little bit more about what project based learning could look like, what it can look like week by week, I give you lots more tips on how to how to do it successfully in your classroom, how to increase engagement. And I give you a ton more project based ideas that you can do, and you don't need to necessarily buy resources. It's stuff that you can do with what you already have. Just to give you some ideas on how you can really engage your students and increase that buy in and hopefully decrease some of those challenging behaviors you might get. So I always like to give little freebies too when in my session. So if you come, you'll definitely get something, some knowledge, but also some physical resources too, and it's great, like, Please come,
perfect. We'll be sure to include the link to register to grab your free ticket in the show notes wherever you're listening. So Alessandra, can you give us any final tips or words of encouragement, maybe for teachers that are thinking about trying PBL and are just, you know, they just need a little bit extra support, a little little bit of a nudge.
First off, just know that you can do this. Middle School can have its challenges, but can also have so many successes as well when it comes to project based learning, have your plan, have your week by week expectations, but be okay if things change, if your students need an extra week, or if you need to adjust expectations as you go along as well, you can do it. Start small, start simple. And as you gain confidence in it, and as you see the benefits of it, you can start to expand what kind of projects you want your students to complete in the future.
Perfect. Before we leave, can you let our listeners know where they can hang out with you on the internet and kind of learn more about what you do in the online space?
Yeah, absolutely. So I am online at Teach from the stage. I'm on. I'm on it all. Instagram, Tiktok. You can visit my website, www, dot teach from the stage.com, there's lots of resources. There, blog posts, freebies, tons and tons of stuff. If you've listened today and you have a question or you just want to talk more about project based learning, feel free to send me a DM or send me an email even teach from the [email protected]. I'd be so happy to connect. I love doing stuff like this. I love helping other teachers, and I hope you were able to pick up even one thing today that will hopefully help your teaching practice.
Well, we appreciate you so much for sharing your insight and Alessandra and to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us. And in case nobody's told you lately, thank you so much for making a difference in the lives the students that you teach you.
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I loved it.
