164 | Interview with Nick Dolan - HD 720p
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[00:00:00] You're listening to That Music Podcast with Bryson Tarbin. The curriculum designer and educational consultant behind That Music Teacher and the Elementary Music Summit. Each week, Bryson and his guests will dive into the reality of being an elementary music teacher and how music can truly be transformative in the lives of the students you serve.
[00:00:23] Show notes and resources mentioned in this episode can be found at thatmusicteacher. com
[00:00:35] Bryson Tarbet: Hello everyone. And welcome back to that music podcast. I am really excited to dive in today. Um, we have Nick Dolan on the podcast and we're going to be talking about community building and what that means. Um, having, you know, community based performances and all that fun stuff. Uh, Nick, thank you so much for joining me for today's episode.
[00:00:54] Nick Dolan: Thanks for having me.
[00:00:56] Bryson Tarbet: All right. Before we get too far in, can you start by telling us [00:01:00] your background in education and then what inspired you to focus on this kind of community? And how it relates to music education.
[00:01:09] Nick Dolan: Yeah. So I've spent the last eight years teaching general music and choir and helping others to do the same.
[00:01:16] Nick Dolan: Um, I'm also a PhD student at Texas tech right now, um, where my research focus is a little bit, um, around gender, choral pedagogy and Kodai. And what inspired me, um, to talk about community Is, um, I am someone who tends to add too much to my plate, tries to do it all myself. And I realized that, um, while I said that I valued community in my classroom, I realized that by me doing everything, I was actually taking parts of that community away from my students.
[00:01:52] Nick Dolan: Um, so I started looking at how I can put more of my students education into their own hands.
[00:01:59] Bryson Tarbet: I love that. And I [00:02:00] think a lot of us can relate to the wanting to take on too many things. I am, that's definitely me to a T. And I, as far as what I noticed, I think a lot of musicians are, have that same kind of mindset.
[00:02:11] Bryson Tarbet: So, um, let's talk a little bit about, um, about that in general. So You will be leading a master class inside that music teacher community where we're really going to dive in deep in this But can you talk a little bit about you're the you know The title like little leaders that you gave us and why you think that's important and why you decided to lead a master class on it
[00:02:33] Nick Dolan: Yeah.
[00:02:34] Nick Dolan: So before, even before I started teaching public school, back when I was teaching private piano lessons, um, I would always tell my students that my goal for them is for them to have the tools and the confidence to make music without me. Um, so to me, little leaders means giving our students the tools and the opportunities so that, um, they can take the lead and develop those skills to build a community and, [00:03:00] um, to make music without us holding their hands.
[00:03:03] Bryson Tarbet: I think that is something that no, first of all, no one teaches us how to do that. Um, so I, I think that is a valiant effort because, uh, for a lot of the reasons, I mean, one reason you already mentioned is how we, You know, when we give the education back to them, it gives them more agency and it gives them more kind of buy in sometimes.
[00:03:23] Bryson Tarbet: Um, can you talk a little bit about the, why you think involving the community is so crucial for, um, young musicians?
[00:03:32] Nick Dolan: Yeah, I think, um, one of the wonderful things about music is that it helps young people find themselves in their world. And part of being a child is learning about what it means to be a productive, responsible, and caring part of a community that is larger than yourself.
[00:03:49] Nick Dolan: And music historically has been a communal activity. Um, so helping students to take part in that is to bring to life an [00:04:00] important part of the music making experience.
[00:04:02] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah, I think that we we forget that sometimes as musicians that Music didn't start as this like individual thing. It was just this thing that people did.
[00:04:13] Bryson Tarbet: Um, you know, and it just kind of, it's, if you look back on, you know, historical events and things like that, you'll see there's always this lineage of music attached to it in some way or another, because. Just like you said, it is such a communal thing. And I think sometimes we as teachers can get a little stuck with that.
[00:04:32] Bryson Tarbet: And I think sometimes administrators can get a little bit, not necessarily upset about it or concerned about it, but just like, not quite understanding that While there are so many individual students in our classrooms that are learning on their own individual journey, the, the act of music making is so communal.
[00:04:54] Bryson Tarbet: So it's going to look a lot different than, you know, if it were not. And I think that's [00:05:00] something that I've had to do some work, just kind of sharing with you. with my administrators on, on how that, that works and how, you know, even though we're all doing these things together, they're still learning happen at an individual level.
[00:05:14] Nick Dolan: Yeah. And I think that this is especially true for teachers in the United States. I think the, the culture in the United States is very individualistic, um, for better or worse, whatever that might mean. But I think that translates to us as teachers as We just we're not used to having community as being like a really big part of our lives for a lot of us anyway um and music like you said historically has been Such a communal experience and still is in a lot of places in the world.
[00:05:47] Nick Dolan: Um, but I think in our Western culture, we, we've stepped away from that a little bit.
[00:05:53] Bryson Tarbet: I cannot agree more. And I think, I think that's part of the culture shock of the music classroom sometimes is that it [00:06:00] doesn't really fit into the box that education's kind of been made out to be. Um, and that can be.
[00:06:07] Bryson Tarbet: frustrating for us as teachers trying to fit within that system. Um, and you know, I think that's where a lot of the, the frustration comes with, um, for instance, administrators not really know what's going on in our classroom, but also our peers, all the teachers that are, you know, in the general ed classroom, don't quite understand what's going on in our classroom because just like you said, it, it does have that community focus.
[00:06:31] Bryson Tarbet: And I think it's just a little bit of a disconnect between, um, Between the different areas that allow us to, to kind of put that into words.
[00:06:41] Nick Dolan: Yeah. And I think that a lot of times, like, so I'm a Kodai, I am, I'm a Kodai person. And a lot of what we do is, Um, centers around dance and play and things like that in the classroom, which is not just a Kodai thing, but it's very heavily involved in the [00:07:00] Kodai world.
[00:07:01] Nick Dolan: Um, but because of that, I think a lot of what learning looks like in my classroom can be a little chaotic sometimes. And In a world where education is filled with order, um, that, like you were saying, that doesn't quite fit the mold. Um, but going back to community, I see those types of performances. As a part of learning how to be in a community, right?
[00:07:27] Nick Dolan: It's when we're playing a game, there's going to be conflict sometime. And conflict resolution is a part of being in a community. Um, so having a little bit of chaos sometimes is just, it's a part of life. It's a part of being in a community.
[00:07:42] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. And I think embracing that chaos and allowing the students to kind of figure it out sometimes, especially, you know, with conflict resolution, because let's be honest.
[00:07:52] Bryson Tarbet: It's going to happen in whether or not it, you know, if we didn't put it in our classroom, it's going to happen somewhere else. So why don't we create a place that we can model how [00:08:00] how to get through that? Um, but I do want to zoom in a little bit and kind of talk. You mentioned community based performances.
[00:08:06] Bryson Tarbet: Can you kind of give that kind of a little bit of a definition? What to you? It makes something a community based performance.
[00:08:15] Nick Dolan: I mean, I think so it, and we'll talk about this in the masterclass, but it can be as big or as small as you want it to be, or as it needs to be. So community based performance can be, um, a performance that is led by the students largely.
[00:08:30] Nick Dolan: It can be, uh, kind of a collaborative thing with you and the students. You can involve parents and families. You can involve organizations. So it, it can look different for a lot of different teachers and a lot of different communities. And I think that that's important because we're all different in every part of the culture and every part of the country and every part of the world.
[00:08:55] Nick Dolan: Our needs are different. Our students are different. So I think that. [00:09:00] Community based performance needs to be flexible. It needs to reflect our community in our classroom and in our school.
[00:09:07] Bryson Tarbet: For sure. I, I think back to one of my recorder concerts a few years ago where I actually missed the performance because I was getting my appendix out at the time.
[00:09:17] Bryson Tarbet: Um, and the fourth grade, they just did it. Like the, the teacher basically got them started and they did their thing and like being able to see them take that ownership and, you know, watching the video in the hospital bed of just like how. Impressed they were and how proud they were of being able to pull it off without me there Um was really cool and I I think you know I've never used the term community based performance, but I think I agree with you on a lot of these, these, these philosophies of it, because for instance, you know, we, we see some, some teachers love putting on these huge elaborate performances with costumes and scenes and, and things like that.
[00:09:54] Bryson Tarbet: And just quite frankly, I'm not a huge fan of that by putting it on myself, but also like that wouldn't work in the community. I [00:10:00] taught like, that's just not the. That's not the type of parental support that we would be able to get, especially when it comes to financial support and things like that. Um, so we, we did it something different to make it more accessible, to make it so our students were able to actively participate.
[00:10:15] Bryson Tarbet: Um, and I think that's, A good point that you mentioned is that it's going to look different depending on who you are and where you are.
[00:10:23] Nick Dolan: Yeah. And I think that for those of us who are in a position where you can have those big extravagant performances, there's a place for community involvement in that as well.
[00:10:32] Nick Dolan: And we'll talk about that in the masterclass too. I think that. Like I said, it's, it's flexible and needs to be flexible and it can be as small as you need it to be. It can be as big as you need it to be.
[00:10:45] Bryson Tarbet: So one thing that I kind of an initial thought when I was kind of thinking about questions for, for this episode was how do we create these leadership opportunities?
[00:10:56] Bryson Tarbet: For younger students, especially like, how do we, how do we balance [00:11:00] giving them what they're capable of, but also like knowing that they're younger and you know that they, you wouldn't give them the same thing that you would necessarily give the reins to like a high school student, how do you kind of tow that line, but also give them the opportunity to develop those skills?
[00:11:15] Nick Dolan: Yeah, I think that the first step is just letting go of that control and seeing what your students actually are capable of. Because honestly, I'm a firm believer that kids are way more capable than we give them credit for. Yeah. And, um, for example, I teach as young as first grade how to conduct in two meter.
[00:11:42] Nick Dolan: And. Is it going to be perfect? Are they going to be, you know, exactly on time all the time? No, but that's part of that letting go of, uh, of control and, and remembering that a community based performance is a performance put on by the, the [00:12:00] community, by the students, right? Um, so if you are someone who's like, no, I got to be in front of the mic, I got to be in front of the, the ensemble, Um, you, the first step is really just kind of letting go of that and being okay with the fact that by giving your students in your community a bigger part of the music making process, there's going to be.
[00:12:24] Nick Dolan: Mistakes, there's going to be imperfections, but music doesn't have to be perfect.
[00:12:30] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah, that right there could just be the whole episode right there. Zooming in on music doesn't have to be perfect. So often I see people that are like stressing out about a performance because X, Y, Z, but they're, they're not.
[00:12:44] Bryson Tarbet: The real quirk of it comes to it's not gonna be this Broadway, you know caliber performance and like yeah, they're kindergartners like We got to make sure our expectations are are matched with what they're capable of and it doesn't mean to say, you know, they're not [00:13:00] capable of Of doing good things, but like just understand that it's gonna be a little chaotic You might have a student throw up off the top row, you know You might have one student that for whatever reason the day of the performance not that this may or may not have happened But the day of the performance they are just like super into it and just they're basically scream singing the whole time, you know and I think that's something that we have to be okay with because That's the opportunity that we're giving them is the, the, the good, bad and the ugly of performance where everything, everything is connected and everything just stop trying to be perfect.
[00:13:40] Bryson Tarbet: I guess we can leave it at that.
[00:13:42] Nick Dolan: Yeah. And I think that, you know, again, that's kind of a product of our Western culture is that we've kind of developed this idea. That music should be or can be this pristine thing and There are cultures all over the world [00:14:00] that are more involved in that folk tradition of Just get up and play just get up and dance and it's nobody cares about what notes come out of your mouth What notes come out of the instrument?
[00:14:12] Nick Dolan: It's not about the the product. It's about the experience And I think that that's really You The focus of this kind of performance.
[00:14:22] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes kind of going off of that, it can be hard to really think about that, what that looks like if you haven't really seen it, right. Um, or if you don't really understand, you know, what that folk tradition can be like.
[00:14:37] Bryson Tarbet: And I like to kind of. Bring it into sports, which I know is a really dangerous topic for me to be talking about, but you know, like when, if you're at a stadium, they might start, you know, chanting or going, Oh, no, one's worried about the way they sing, right. When they're doing that, it's about the act of coming together as you know, the student section or as a team and supporting your [00:15:00] team and cheering them on.
[00:15:00] Bryson Tarbet: And that's kind of the same vibe that I was getting at, or that I feel like we, we would, would love to emulate in this type of. Just like, can we make music for the sake of being together in that community?
[00:15:14] Nick Dolan: Yeah, and I actually I love that analogy because that really like it's so true when you're at a sporting event and everyone's singing whatever song it may be for whatever team or sport or whatever.
[00:15:28] Nick Dolan: It's always awful, right? Like, as musicians, that's like the cringiest thing in the world. But like, it's not about, you know, millions of people in a stadium or whatever, play, you know, singing the same notes. It's about being together and supporting something that everyone there Is there to enjoy and love together?
[00:15:48] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. And what I love about that is so many times in my daily life, when I tell people, I'm a teacher, they're like, Oh my goodness, I can never sing. Or, you know, I love to sing in the shower, but I'm, and like, but I, those would be the same [00:16:00] people that would be screaming their hearts out, you know, hearts, desire out in this type of, of, of situation, which really goes to show you is, That the, the, the way that we view music in society is very different than this community based approach, which I love, which is why I think we need to talk about it in, in, in avenues like this so that we can kind of model what that looks like because it's hard to emulate something when you don't really see how it, it works.
[00:16:28] Bryson Tarbet: So I think by do engaging our students in this kind of community based music education, that's going to give them kind of the, the prerequisite understanding to. Kind of start making some shifts, right? Maybe they start singing some more and it kind of, it kind of evolves from there. And I think it's a, it's a long journey, but I think it's important.
[00:16:47] Nick Dolan: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important to note too, that while we've talked about how this can be flexible and look, uh, look differently in a lot of different contexts, it can also start. At any [00:17:00] age, right? I mean, that's, that's the thing is community based performances around the world in that folk tradition.
[00:17:06] Nick Dolan: More, most often they're not trained musicians. They're people who play a lot of music within that community. So understanding that, like you can have kindergartners do a community based performance. It's going to look different than say fifth graders. or sixth graders doing a community based performance because they're at a different stage developmentally.
[00:17:32] Nick Dolan: But it's when you just take a step back and say, this is about the experience of these children making music on their terms. That's really what we're looking at.
[00:17:44] Bryson Tarbet: So let's talk about that for a second. What What might a community based performance look like in a kindergarten level? You know, what types of things might we expect to see or, you know, what, what might that look like?
[00:17:58] Nick Dolan: Yeah. So it [00:18:00] can, it can look a lot of like a lot of different ways. So if you have for kindergarten, it could be as simple as. If you're working with xylophones with them, or even more simple, it could be body percussion, something like that. You can come up with something where just it put them in small groups.
[00:18:25] Nick Dolan: And say, your job is to come up with a small pattern. That's it four beats. And then have everybody come up with their own thing. Maybe you have, I don't know, three or four, five different groups come up with their own something, some ostinato, some kind of pattern. And then you share out and you can make either a song, you can make, um, choreography, you can make body percussion, you can make all kinds of things.
[00:18:55] Nick Dolan: You could do this with. Um, you know, small instruments, jingle bells, things like that, [00:19:00] sticks, whatever, and it can be super simple. Um, and then you can look at this in terms of form, right? And you can say, okay, let's take this groups or again, trying to take yourself out of it if you can. So that's me saying, I'm going to take control.
[00:19:16] Nick Dolan: But if we want to release that control, we can get, put it back on them and say, okay, here are the patterns that we have. What should we do first? And allow them to say, well, I think I like this group's real a lot. Let's start with that one. And maybe not everyone will agree and that's fine. Um, but you start to come up with a form for a song or a choreography or whatever it is based on just here's your job is just to come up with something very small and very simple, and now let's put it together.
[00:19:49] Nick Dolan: So that's just, that's just one example, but there's lots and lots of different ways that this can look.
[00:19:54] Bryson Tarbet: And I think that's. I'm glad that we, we, we dove into that because I [00:20:00] think when we hear the phrase community based performance, we can, we can, we instantly go to, how are we going to get the parents involved?
[00:20:06] Bryson Tarbet: Right. But I think we also need to remember that there's a community on the stage too. So just all of those strategies that we have that give agency to students and have them, you know, create a choice. I'm like, all right, we're going to do this, this different song who has a body percussion pattern that we can use or something like that.
[00:20:22] Bryson Tarbet: That alone right there is exactly what we're talking about. It doesn't have to be super complicated. It can be something as simple as giving the student the choice of what's going to be happening on that stage.
[00:20:35] Nick Dolan: Yeah, definitely.
[00:20:37] Bryson Tarbet: So we kind of talked about the community on stage. Let's talk about the community watching, um, you know, the community as a whole.
[00:20:45] Bryson Tarbet: How do you encourage participation in these types of performances, especially, you know, how would you recommend for teachers that don't really have a strong community connection yet? Yeah.
[00:20:57] Nick Dolan: Yeah. I mean. The nice [00:21:00] thing is, so I teach about 400 students, uh, that's not going to be 400 families because we have siblings, but not every family is going to want to participate.
[00:21:09] Nick Dolan: And not every family is going to have the means to participate for a variety of reasons. Um, Some are just going to want to sit and watch and that's totally fine. Um, I think the first step is really just reaching out and introducing yourself, um, and asking for help. If that's something that you're looking for.
[00:21:28] Nick Dolan: Um, I think that as music specialists and as music teachers, it's really easy for us to kind of live in our. Our little fish tank and not reach out to our community. Um, but a large percentage of our, a percentage of our community wants to be involved. They want to know what their students are doing. Um, so I would say first step, even if you don't have a huge community yet, it's just open the door for communication.
[00:21:58] Nick Dolan: Send out, you know, a blast [00:22:00] email to all, or, you know, maybe a, uh, grade level or something and just say, Hey, you know, And you can do this even now. We've been in school for two months now. At least I have, it's not too late. You can reach out to your parents and just say, or your families say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm the music teacher.
[00:22:20] Nick Dolan: Um, I would love to do something by the end of the year, you know, give yourself a timeline that it doesn't have to be next month. I'd love to do something by the end of the year, and I'd really love for you guys to be involved. If you have a way that you have seen at another school, a friend, um, if you've had an idea, if you have something that you've wondered about, um, I would love your input on how you think that you can be involved in a performance by the end of the year.
[00:22:50] Nick Dolan: And we'll, we'll talk about in the masterclass, a few examples of what that might look like. So if you're just like, I have no clue where to even start or what that could look like at [00:23:00] all. Um, I I'll give examples of what that could look like.
[00:23:04] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah, and I think, you know, sometimes you might have to do, push them outside of their comfort zone a little bit, um, because they don't, they might not necessarily have, like we said earlier, that background understanding of, of what this might look like.
[00:23:18] Bryson Tarbet: Um, one, one thing that I did with my parents, my, when, after college, Um, and then, um, after all the COVID stuff happened and we were able to open up performances back, um, I really wanted to focus on community. I'm like, how can we get everyone involved? Um, so our third graders, we did a folk dance night and we basically put a bunch of chairs around the gym and said, all right, we're going to show you a couple, but you're also going to come up and do a couple.
[00:23:42] Bryson Tarbet: Um, and, you know, Obviously, if someone was sitting down, we didn't like yank them up there, but like the, the kids were really excited to get their, their grownups up there. And I, and what was really cool is you started to see the change from the families that were like, Oh my goodness, what is going [00:24:00] on to, Oh my goodness, this is so much fun.
[00:24:02] Bryson Tarbet: We're doing it all together. And I think that is exactly what we're talking about when it comes to just how can we get everyone involved? How can we make, how can we. make decisions that make more music happening in the world.
[00:24:17] Nick Dolan: Yeah. And I love that example. And that's actually something we'll talk about in the masterclass as well.
[00:24:22] Nick Dolan: The folk folk dance night with family members can be so much fun. And even if it's just sitting on the sidelines and clapping on the beat, that's it. I mean, we, we need some hand clappers. That's, that's part of folk dancing a lot of times. And Is it going to be perfectly on the beat all the time? Probably not.
[00:24:42] Nick Dolan: But again, you know, stepping away from that idea of perfection and just having fun. And yeah, I, I love folk dance nights. I think, um, for anyone who hasn't done them, they can be extremely fun and extremely successful.
[00:24:59] Bryson Tarbet: They're a lot of fun. [00:25:00] They're definitely a little, a little bit of a shift from what you might expect at a performance, but I.
[00:25:06] Bryson Tarbet: I never looked back. I kept doing it because it was just that much, that much fun. And it was also nice because I got to challenge the expectation of what happens in music class a little bit. Right. I got to, I was able to show them. exactly what we're doing and why we're doing it. And that, that, that for me was, it was really important.
[00:25:29] Bryson Tarbet: So we've talked a little bit about some of the things that we're going to really deep dive into in the masterclass. Um, but can you give us a little bit of like a preview of, you know, what are, what participants can expect to learn from the session?
[00:25:42] Nick Dolan: Yeah, so we're going to talk about how do you integrate leadership roles into class or rehearsal?
[00:25:49] Nick Dolan: Um, how to develop collaboration through peer mentoring, team building, um, how to involve students and stakeholders in performance. [00:26:00] Um, we'll look at tools to manage those logistics. Um, and then we'll even look at how all of this aligns with our core music standards, which for some of us and for some of our admin, that's really important.
[00:26:12] Nick Dolan: So we'll take a look at how those align as well.
[00:26:14] Bryson Tarbet: I love that connection back to the standards because again, that can be really helpful and kind of like selling the whole thing. Yeah, especially, um, especially some of those other stakeholders. So you've given a lot of information about how we can, Really about what what we mean when we're talking about this and what it might look like I would love to see if we could like distill that down for a bit and if you could give any if you could give like a short blurb for any teacher who has never tried doing anything like this in as succinctly as you can.
[00:26:51] Bryson Tarbet: Why should they give it a shot?
[00:26:54] Nick Dolan: Well, to answer the question of why it, it can feel [00:27:00] like it's a lot of work. If it's something you've never done before, but the, the reality is actually by giving agency to your students in your community, you're You're actually relieving a lot of the work and the tasks that you would be doing.
[00:27:15] Nick Dolan: Um, so the why is one, it's just fulfilling to see your students in your community making music together, but two more logistically, it takes a lot of the work away from you. Once you have the plan, um, It kind of just runs itself and we'll talk about what that looks like as well.
[00:27:35] Bryson Tarbet: I love that. I am personally really excited for the, for the masterclass.
[00:27:39] Bryson Tarbet: Um, so we can kind of dive in deeper. So before we kind of close out today, I wanted to ask you, is there anything that we did not get to dive into today that you would love to discuss or bring up?
[00:27:54] Nick Dolan: Ah, I don't think so. We, we talked about a lot of really great stuff and I'm just excited to, to [00:28:00] talk more about what community based performance looks like.
[00:28:04] Bryson Tarbet: Perfect. Uh, and we will keep the, the, if you're a current member of that music teacher community, uh, you'll be able to join us live. The link will be in the show notes as well. Um, and if you're listening to this in the future, the recording will be hanging out in our library of professional development.
[00:28:17] Bryson Tarbet: So you can check it out as well. So Nick, before we part, can you let our listeners know where they can connect with you and learn more about the work that you do?
[00:28:26] Nick Dolan: Sure. Um, if you want kind of done for you resources, my TPT store music with Mr. Dolan has you covered. If you want to connect with me personally, um, you can find me on Instagram at music with Mr.
[00:28:39] Nick Dolan: Dolan, where I talk about equity and all things, Kodai and choir.
[00:28:44] Bryson Tarbet: Alrighty. We'll be sure to keep those links in the show notes as well. Nick, thank you so much for chatting with us today with me today, um, and sharing your, your expertise with our listeners. Cheers.
[00:28:55] Nick Dolan: Yeah. Thanks, Bryson.
[00:28:56] Bryson Tarbet: All right. Thank you listeners for joining us for this [00:29:00] episode of that music podcast.
[00:29:01] Bryson Tarbet: We really appreciate you listening in and taking some time to get to understand something a little bit differently. Um, and, but as I will end many, many things, I want to remind you, thank you so much for making a difference in the lives of the students that you teach.
