167 | Interview with Ashley Cuthbertson - HD 720p
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[00:00:00] You're listening to That Music Podcast with Bryson Tarbin. The curriculum designer and educational consultant behind That Music Teacher and the Elementary Music Summit. Each week, Bryson and his guests will dive into the reality of being an elementary music teacher and how music can truly be transformative in the lives of the students you serve.
[00:00:23] Show notes and resources mentioned in this episode can be found at thatmusicteacher. com
[00:00:35] Bryson Tarbet: Hello everyone. And welcome back to that music podcast. I am super excited for the conversation we're about to have, which is all about how we can make the music classroom for everyone. And when we say that we're actually meaning, how do we make it culturally responsive and how do we make it so that everybody sees themselves and sees the world around them in our classroom?
[00:00:56] Bryson Tarbet: Um, and we have a wonderful guest speaker today, uh, Ashley Cuthbertson. I [00:01:00] am so excited to have you. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
[00:01:04] Ashley Cuthbertson: Thank you for having me, Bryce. I'm excited for our conversation today and also for your listeners to get a chance to learn a little bit more about culturally responsive teaching in the music context.
[00:01:14] Bryson Tarbet: For sure. So I would love to, before we get started, uh, dive in a little bit and how you, how you started this journey, you know, and the journey that you're on in sharing how we can be more culturally responsive. Can you, so can you kind of take us through, um, what you got you to where you are today?
[00:01:30] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yeah.
[00:01:31] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yeah. So, um, currently to now, I am the founder and principal consultant of A. Kupfertson Consulting. That's the work that I do with, uh, schools, districts, organizations all across the United States supporting their music, but now also arts. More and more, our clients are full visual performing arts teams to help them to connect with their learners and really be able to put in place equitable program policies, cultivate those wonderful affirming learning environments, but also help their teachers to be able to put into place culturally [00:02:00] relevant.
[00:02:00] Ashley Cuthbertson: Curriculum and instruction. And before I did that though, I was a pre K through 12 music teacher. I was an adjunct professor and like many of teachers, maybe you, I'm sure many of your audience members, people who are listening, I became a music teacher because I was excited, right. About spreading the joy of music to my students.
[00:02:18] Ashley Cuthbertson: I thought I was going to be a performer and then kind of came by into teaching. I was not the original plan, but what clearly was like the way that I knew that I could best. serve. And I was just so excited to get into the classroom. And then I'm sure, as many people experience in those early years, my students were not as excited as I was, right?
[00:02:35] Ashley Cuthbertson: I was so excited to share the music that I was excited to learn when I was a student. I was excited to kind of just connect with them in ways around the music itself. And and It was really discouraging in those early years when I was trying so hard to get them to just be excited, like just sit down and listen.
[00:02:53] Ashley Cuthbertson: Like what I'm going to do is really exciting for you, but it wasn't. And it was, it was kind of a hard lesson I had to learn that just me being excited was never going [00:03:00] to be enough because I was really only coming at it from my own lens. What was exciting for me, I completely missed the point of, I have to find what's going to be connecting and engaging for my students.
[00:03:11] Ashley Cuthbertson: And I remember one particularly really rough lesson with a group of fifth graders. I taught. Um, general music, band, choir, all the things pre K all the way through adults, you know, as an adjunct professor, even high school, but I mostly taught elementary general music, which I, I believe most of your learners, uh, your listeners are also elementary general music teachers.
[00:03:30] Ashley Cuthbertson: And so I remember my mentor teacher basically saying to me, you have to find a way to be able to connect with your students. Because clearly what you're doing is not, um, engaging enough for them. She said, so we got to catch more flies with honey than vinegar, right? Like what you're doing to them may feel like honey to you, but to them it does not come across that same way.
[00:03:52] Ashley Cuthbertson: And especially at that time when I was working like super, super hard, just to like, what's the next lesson? What's the next cool thing I can bring? It [00:04:00] was kind of hard to hear that I had missed the most important thing, but I'm, I'm still thankful. But I still remember. her telling me that I very clearly I can think of exactly what it looked like and what it felt like to get that feedback because it changed.
[00:04:12] Ashley Cuthbertson: It changed everything and it's really led to where I am now. How can I figure out a way that I can really connect with my students through the way they want to be connected through, not what I want, but how can I really connect with them authentically learning more about not just Who they are on the surface, but really understand because knowledge is not the same as understanding so that the curriculum that I'm creating is really going to make sense for their real life.
[00:04:37] Ashley Cuthbertson: And that's still the work that I am still figuring out. Now, I think it's a never ending journey, even though I now lead teachers and I lead teams to be able to do this work. It really started with me doing the sweat and the tears, not the blood, I always say, but definitely a sweat and tears work of, uh, How can I figure this out in a way that works for my students?
[00:04:55] Ashley Cuthbertson: And how can I work with them to be able to do that? Because ultimately we want kids to [00:05:00] be able to access the power that is music and the arts. But if we can't teach them in a way that's relevant, they never get access to that. I always say that that's really what it is. It's not just, That you have a music course at your school.
[00:05:11] Ashley Cuthbertson: That's actually not access. Access is do students see the ability for them to be able to be successful in your program? It doesn't really matter if you have the core. Well, it doesn't matter. You got to have the course to begin with. Right. But if beyond just having the course is all that you're thinking about.
[00:05:27] Ashley Cuthbertson: That access really comes when they can see that they can be successful, whether you teach elementary journal music or you're a high school band teacher. So that's still the, the big question that I am striving to work with myself, but also the teachers and the teams that I work with, how can we make sure that.
[00:05:42] Ashley Cuthbertson: All students have that equitable access to high quality music learning. And I really believe that the lever we pull is culturally responsive teaching.
[00:05:50] Bryson Tarbet: I think that that's something that could be. That gets a bad, not necessarily bad, but just like that misrepresented definition of what that [00:06:00] means, um, you know, even me in the last few years, especially having, you know, once, once we were connected, I really got started to understand like, Oh, it actually, it's much bigger than this, but also you know, Kind of simpler when we think about it.
[00:06:12] Bryson Tarbet: It's you know, it's not it's not something you do It's the way that you frame and the way that you think about things in the way that you're just aware of what's going on But kind of going on that point. I'm sure if you google culturally responsive teaching you're gonna get a thousand definitions that are all contradicting each other.
[00:06:29] Bryson Tarbet: So can you get us all on the same page for you at least? What is that definition, especially when we can zoom in and what does that mean in the music classroom?
[00:06:38] Ashley Cuthbertson: For sure. Yes. And you will get probably a million different contradicting definitions if you were to Google closely responsive teaching. So let me start with that.
[00:06:46] Ashley Cuthbertson: So in the simplest, Most kind of generalized way, obviously there's more intricacies to it, but the most straightforward way to define culturally responsive teaching is leveraging the cultural frames of reference of [00:07:00] students in order to make instruction relevant and effective for them. That's like the heart of what culturally responsive education and teaching is, which is a field that feels new, but it's actually not.
[00:07:10] Ashley Cuthbertson: It's like 40 years of research, bodies of strategies, things like that. And then I define culturally responsive music education specifically as how we leverage those cultural frames of reference, which is really just the knowledge, the experience, and The interest that our learners bring with them, but how do we leverage those frames of reference in order to work in partnership with our students and engage them in relevant real world context of music making such that they are building understandings about themselves, about others, and the world around them, and they're just doing it through the medium of music.
[00:07:45] Ashley Cuthbertson: And
[00:07:46] Bryson Tarbet: I think that's a really good way to think about it. The reality is the way, let's be honest, a lot of the ways that we as professionally trained musicians learn music was not this way. And, [00:08:00] and I think that a lot of times we started, whether we mean to or not, we kind of emulate what we, what we saw, you know, in music school and in the conservatory.
[00:08:07] Bryson Tarbet: And the reality is, is that. But I think we all have problems with that at least what, you know, one at one point or another where we felt like we were just a cog in a machine that was, you know, music was happening at us rather than around us and with us. And I think that's something that is really important for us to dive into.
[00:08:26] Bryson Tarbet: Um, but I do want to mention kind of a, the proverbial elephant in the room, which is, there's probably someone listening right now saying, Bryson, Ashley, I just, I don't have the time for one more thing. Why is it important to do that one more thing? And although, as we've kind of discussed, it's not just the one more thing, but like, why is this important in a music classroom?
[00:08:48] Bryson Tarbet: Why is this important specifically in today's music classroom?
[00:08:52] Ashley Cuthbertson: For sure, yes. And I, I think that's probably the number one question that I get. Well, maybe one, top one or three. One to three, I would say that [00:09:00] I get when I'm working with teachers who, um, are wanting to find ways to just be more effective, enjoy what they're doing, make sure their students enjoy.
[00:09:08] Ashley Cuthbertson: But we know being a teacher is hard. It's still the hardest. I always say, the hardest job I will ever do is being a music teacher full stop. So I get it. There's so many things that are. demanding of your attention that you don't even realize until you get into the classroom. But I also argue that you actually don't have time to not center an equitable, culturally responsive approach to the way that you teach, to the way that you do music in your program.
[00:09:34] Ashley Cuthbertson: Because a lot of the frustrations that a lot of music teachers have in their classrooms, especially now with the student of 2024, as we're having this recording, a lot of the frustrations are around negative kind of behavior interactions, not feeling like students are engaged, a lot of apathy, also feeling like they're not, they're not sure what kind of music students even want to engage in.
[00:09:56] Ashley Cuthbertson: A lot of the, those frustrations can be solved [00:10:00] by going back to the basics of what a culturally responsive approach is asking you to do. Not just know who your students are, as a but to understand them at a deeper level, their cultural frames of reference, which is not just race and ethnicity. I know people hear culture and they immediately think race, the color of my, my skin, the color of my students skin.
[00:10:17] Ashley Cuthbertson: That's actually one part, but not the whole thing. But when we think about Understanding our students such that then we know how to address if there is a negative kind of behavior that's being expressed in the classroom. But sometimes it's not the behavior itself, right? Behavior is just communication.
[00:10:33] Ashley Cuthbertson: It's understanding, well, what are they trying to communicate? But if you don't understand your learners, it's hard for you to be able to understand what it is they're trying to communicate through that behavior that might feel negative and disruptive to you. But for them, it's just a way that they're trying to show you that they're trying to connect.
[00:10:50] Ashley Cuthbertson: But they don't know how to connect, right? So I actually think we don't, we don't have time to not focus on a culturally responsive way because a lot of the time wasters that happen in our classrooms [00:11:00] stem from students not feeling like they're connected, not feeling like what they're learning is relevant.
[00:11:05] Ashley Cuthbertson: And that's really the bedrock of a culturally responsive and relevant approach is starting there first, understanding the learner. So we know what will be relevant and then being able to then go from there. Sometimes I think we go backwards. We focus on the concept, the skill, the music, but actually we don't know what concept skills and music to be focusing on until we know those other things first.
[00:11:26] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah, and I'll be the first one to say that in my definition, my understanding of it was exactly what you had mentioned that it's not, which is, you know, it's, it's, it's not about your, your, your, your racial and ethnic background. It's, it's about the experience because of that. And I think that's important for us to realize that that is a part of this, but the reality is, is part of it is also showing what we, what we don't necessarily see and what we, what a student might not necessarily have in their own experience, but just showing that.
[00:11:56] Bryson Tarbet: There are other experiences out there through [00:12:00] their preferred things. And that's not saying we only get to do, they only get to do what they want to do. Um, but I, I think you, you bring it up, you bring, you frame it in a really important way where. It's important work, and it's often done backwards, just like you said, um, because we don't, we don't talk about this anywhere near enough that we, as we need to, um, especially at the undergraduate level or in the school districts themselves.
[00:12:23] Bryson Tarbet: So, I would love to, you know, do you have any sort of like big mindset shift that you would want a listener to listen to? To begin to start embracing about culturally responsive teaching, are there any specific like hurdles that you commonly see or challenges that you'd like to offer to our listeners?
[00:12:43] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yes, the first one is that it's not about just simply diversifying our repertoire. I feel like that's like my catchphrase now is that often when music teachers. Think they're doing culturally responsive teaching. That's where they go Well, I have a black brown indigenous or asian composer on my choir concert.
[00:12:59] Ashley Cuthbertson: [00:13:00] I'm being culturally responsive or We're singing songs in spanish. My students speak spanish Never mind that the song is from mexico and your students are colombian, right? Like i'm doing the general the general genre diversity thing The biggest shift is that we have to move away from diversity because that's really multicultural teaching which is its own You Thing and has a place but if we're going to talk about culturally responsive teaching That's actually not what it is And I your note your listeners will notice that when I define closely responsive teaching and then Uh further closely responsive music education as I define it nowhere in there Are we talking about diversity or even repertoire right?
[00:13:39] Ashley Cuthbertson: Because that's actually The vehicle by which we do these things just happens to be the music so that that first mind shift is that we have to move away from thinking it's about just diversity because diversity does not help kids learn better doesn't help them learn how to read better doesn't help them to perform better.
[00:13:54] Ashley Cuthbertson: It's nice and it is a component. But we have to move away from thinking I just did [00:14:00] something diverse and now I'm being culturally responsive because the Um, the reality is a lot of time what is happening is like a performative diversity where yes You programmed a gospel piece on your choir program But the way you taught that gospel piece was the same standard western european kind of way of approaching music You totally glossed over the gospel tradition how gospel music is taught and so yeah You did the diverse thing, but you didn't actually, because you didn't actually change anything about your approach or the strategies that are inherent in that genre of teaching.
[00:14:35] Ashley Cuthbertson: That's the number one mindset shift that I, when I'm working with teachers that we have to move away from what I think often we're being told might be culturally responsive teaching to really understand what it is. And that also means that uncomfortably, maybe some things that you've been doing that you thought were culturally responsive were not.
[00:14:52] Ashley Cuthbertson: So how do we, Kind of accept that maybe that's where we were, but now we know where to go forward and not get caught in like the discomfort of Oh, [00:15:00] I thought it was one thing and now it's something else because sometimes that, that trap happens where you're so stuck in like, well, I thought I was doing the right thing and it's like, okay, but now you know where to go.
[00:15:08] Ashley Cuthbertson: So let's get going, going on our journey. So bogged down in the shame, I think the shame and the guilt of thinking you thought you were doing it one way and then it's probably not.
[00:15:18] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. I want to touch on a couple of points there. You know, first of all, where, where we ended that the whole idea of when you know, better do better.
[00:15:25] Bryson Tarbet: Um, It can it can feel rough it can feel you know there is some real shame sometimes when you when you realize something you're like whoa that's that was not my intention but the reality isn't intention isn't isn't the problem there um so it's you know you know better now so move forward and and see what we can do um to to take the actions to.
[00:15:46] Bryson Tarbet: Hopefully not have a them as often or as frequently or as intense, but I also would be remissed if I didn't pick up on your use of music as a vehicle, um, because my listeners may or may not know you just [00:16:00] recently released a book which happens to be sitting on the kitchen table, um, called music as a vehicle.
[00:16:05] Bryson Tarbet: So can you do me a favor? Do us a favor? And will you just tell us a little bit about your book?
[00:16:09] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yeah, for sure. So my book is called my first book. I know it will be the first of probably many is called music as a vehicle, which I love that you picked up on that. That's really what it is, right? It's not the music itself.
[00:16:20] Ashley Cuthbertson: It's how do we use the music as a vehicle? So it's called music as a vehicle, a practical guide to implementing culturally responsive teaching and today's music classrooms. Um, so the book is basically the framework, which is the bedrock of all of the work that I do through my consulting work. And so when I was a teacher Going through um, I've identified basically like three different kind of phases that happen along for most people on the journey as they are Moving towards a more equitable approach.
[00:16:49] Ashley Cuthbertson: There's like the awareness phase where you're just gathering information. You're finding things out There's like an experimentation that happens and then there's like the True kind of sustainable implementation for me as I [00:17:00] move towards like the experiment will move through the experiments again to the like the implementation part and started to work with other teachers.
[00:17:08] Ashley Cuthbertson: I was a coach in my school district for a number of years and I was a professor. Uh, teaching many of these things, I realized that there needed to be like a codified kind of not a list It's not a list But it is kind of like what is a path that makes it clear for people who are busy but need to But are looking for I should say not need to looking for ways to really make this practical in their program I was finding that there, there needed to be like a codification of what it was that I was doing and what it was in my classroom, but also in the classrooms of the teachers that I was mentoring, coaching and teaching.
[00:17:42] Ashley Cuthbertson: And so the framework kind of came out of that. And so I really realized that even though a lot of folks were asking me to do things like talk about curriculum development, I did a lot of curriculum development projects talking about repertoire choices. I actually realized that. Way before all of that happened, kind of what we were talking [00:18:00] about a little bit before, the very first thing was we have to understand equity and we have to develop a lens to see literally where the opportunities for equity lie in our program.
[00:18:10] Ashley Cuthbertson: Also to be able to, uh, kind of plug in the holes when we're seeing we have obstacles and barriers that are happening. In our program and that's a skill set that I find is not often taught And so as a music teacher who is looking to implement a culturally responsive approach to connect with your learners Um to not have a lens for equity Is actually like I don't I wouldn't even say backwards There is no culturally responsive teaching without being able to understand and see equity.
[00:18:38] Ashley Cuthbertson: I was um Reading a book the other day and realized that it's all about understanding where our own You Biases kind of present those obstacles and barriers as well as the greater system. And so before we get into the curriculum, which is often what people want to know, what's the lesson plan? What's the concert pieces I should pick?
[00:18:56] Ashley Cuthbertson: We got to start with developing that lens. And then we look into the learning [00:19:00] environment, because if the container can't contain this kind of teaching and learning, We can't really get anywhere. And it's a very different approach than the sit and get that I know I experienced as a K 12 student. So we have to kind of train the teacher, but also train the students to work together in power versus teacher in power over.
[00:19:18] Ashley Cuthbertson: And then we get into the repertoire and the curriculum that is relevant to the real life. And then also looking at how do we create, um, instruction that inherently is going to meet the variability. of all of our students. And so the book is really focused on all of these kinds of mile markers, I guess, along the journey of, I guess, can use that kind of analogy, but it really is wrapped up in my own story of how I came to get to the place because I don't teach anything that I did not experience myself.
[00:19:46] Ashley Cuthbertson: And that's how I know what I know what I know is that myself, I have experienced all of the phases that one probably will experience. As well as the many teachers I share about some of that in the books. I think it's important for people to A lot of times the [00:20:00] big thought leaders they share the thoughts And they share the result, but I don't find a lot of people share the messiness that goes into them And it's really messy And I think it's important for especially a teacher who's trying to To kind of rid themselves of that guilt and the shame that comes up I think it's really important for people to be more transparent about what led them to the results And so I put it all up there in the book that I released, and it's really more than a book, it's really a full resource, the book itself comes with additional things.
[00:20:31] Ashley Cuthbertson: So my thought is, if you do nothing else but get this book, what would a teacher need to at least get going? And be able to, maybe it's going to take them a little longer because they're trying to figure it out themselves, but they have what they need to at least get started and get going with implementing change in their classroom.
[00:20:48] Ashley Cuthbertson: So. That's it! Musicasavehicle. com if you want to grab your copy, paperback, and e book, it's available.
[00:20:54] Bryson Tarbet: For sure, and we'll be sure to put the link in the show notes as well. Uh, full disclosure, I have not had a chance to read it. Toddler life [00:21:00] is crazy right now, but I can't wait. Um, it's still on my kitchen table because I know if I put it somewhere else, I'll, I'll, it'll, it'll be gone forever.
[00:21:06] Bryson Tarbet: Um, but if I see it, it'll still happen. Um, but what I love about what you just shared there is it, I, I feel like it, I really resonated with the work that I do around differentiation and inclusion kind of from the disability side of it. And, you know, I had what I thought people needed and things like that.
[00:21:22] Bryson Tarbet: But as I get to work more and more with teachers, um, I realized just like you did, we need a little bit more of a framework. We need, we need more, more kind of a little bit more guidance, which is where I ended up coming with the domains of accessibility. Um, but. But even farther than that, you mentioned that it's a lens of looking through, looking at things through, looking at your classroom.
[00:21:42] Bryson Tarbet: And um, just like you say, a lot of times we, we want to be culturally responsive, but we haven't done all of the pre work to make that happen is the same way that I feel like we are with differentiation is you can't differentiate something until you identify that barrier. You can't break down the barrier until you notice that it's [00:22:00] there.
[00:22:00] Bryson Tarbet: And that is, I think the, a big point of, of what the work that you're doing is. Is opening the eyes and say these are some of the things to look for look at what's going on and I think that's a really important thing for for our listeners to to to kind of take into into account is as they're going through their their day maybe if they're driving into work right now as they're going through their day.
[00:22:22] Bryson Tarbet: Be aware of what that might look like. And a lot of it comes down to more than just, just looking and listening, but also like actively seeking feedback, um, which I know can make some people uncomfortable. Uh, so can you share, how do you create space and how do you coach your teachers to create space for voice in the music classroom?
[00:22:41] Ashley Cuthbertson: Oh, that is such a great question. And so I think the first thing when I'm working with the teacher who that might be one of their goals or something that we've identified is an opportunity for them. The number one thing is to look at already what's happening in your classroom. So already who decided the expectations [00:23:00] by which the students are being, the only word that's coming up is judge.
[00:23:04] Ashley Cuthbertson: I don't want to say judge, but hopefully that makes sense. But what, the way that you are kind of like identifying what, what is acceptable behavior to you and what's not, who decided that as well as who decided like what it is that you are like, literally the lesson that you are doing, who decided that that's the lesson that needs to happen.
[00:23:20] Ashley Cuthbertson: And then within that lesson, all the things that you're doing, the activities, the songs, the strategies, Who decided all of those things? That's like the number one question is, who made the decisions? As we're thinking about moving towards, uh, working in power with our students, them having more voice, more choice, but also really being empowered to hold on to their learning and to really be in the driver's seat and driving that.
[00:23:45] Ashley Cuthbertson: That's really what makes learning sticky for students. Is that they have to kind of figure out what are the steps to be able to move towards that goal. If the teacher is the one who's making all of those decisions about the expectations. About what is acceptable, what's not [00:24:00] acceptable, what we're learning, why we're learning, how we're learning it.
[00:24:03] Ashley Cuthbertson: Just pick one of those things. What is one of those things that you can do that you can give up the control with and work with your students to be able to decide how that's going to look? So maybe you're not ready to kind of give the reins over as far as like what we're going to learn, what the lesson is going to be, but can you give over the reins to them to as a collective group decide what is acceptable during our time together in choir or band or whatever, and what's not acceptable.
[00:24:30] Ashley Cuthbertson: How can we create some shared understanding around our norms for learning, community, working together. That could be maybe the one place that you start, and then you build on that. from there. So where is the one opportunity that you can just start? Because I think people get overwhelmed trying to do all of it at once.
[00:24:47] Ashley Cuthbertson: Just pick one thing and start there and then see where that takes you and see where your students, how they interact with that as well. Because for students who have, um, they've only really been in learning environments where it's very Sit and [00:25:00] get the teacher is directly teaching for them Also, it's going to be uncomfortable because a lot of times students in those kind of situations They're looking for the right answer and they're not comfortable yet with the the messiness that comes with real learning Which is real learning should be messy.
[00:25:15] Ashley Cuthbertson: There should be mistakes. So that's the only way that you learn So those students also are going to be uncomfortable with like well, just tell me the right answer. What do you want? So It's like, actually, no, that's the whole point is we're working together to figure out what works for us and what doesn't.
[00:25:27] Ashley Cuthbertson: So what are the, what's the one area where you can increase that voice and choice by letting the students make the decision and not the teacher making the decision?
[00:25:35] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. And I, I just bring that maybe, maybe I'm being a little, um, me centric, but I'm bringing that back to my experience in undergrad, thinking about how I went through music school, which is Very little choice.
[00:25:47] Bryson Tarbet: Maybe I get to pick a recital piece, but it's usually like, Hey, this is, this is the theory we're talking about today. This is the paper we're writing. This is, you know, and that's a whole other conversation in itself and how we can [00:26:00] rework undergrad. But, you know, I, I kind of think of that. Think about my own experience in that and how much better and how much more engaged I would have been and how much more ownership I would have taken, um, had I been more of a stakeholder and, and more of a decision maker rather than, um, some of it was just kind of a long for the ride.
[00:26:17] Bryson Tarbet: So I think that's a really good way to, to frame that, uh, start small and just, you know, Give them some opportunity to have some choice in what's going on around them and what's happening to them. But I also think it's really important that we bring up the point of some, some students are really going to struggle with this Because they want, they want to do right and they want to get a hundred percent and they are You know, they wouldn't have all the right answers, but the reality is, is when we do this, it does create a little bit more of a gray area, a little bit more chaos, um, which I would highly argue is important and so worth it.
[00:26:51] Bryson Tarbet: Um, but it is something for us to be aware of.
[00:26:53] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yeah. And then also to be aware of your tolerance as a individual human being, the teacher, um, If [00:27:00] you it may be that that element of chaos, I love that you said that that's exactly what it is I remember in my own classroom, it felt like chaos in a good way and a bad way.
[00:27:07] Ashley Cuthbertson: I think sometimes but like it's important to know your um tolerance level with that level of chaos so that when you are experiencing the dysregulation and your nervous system that's going to happen, you know ways Or maybe you find ways to help you to kind of calm that so you're not just acting out of your body's, you know, trying to protect itself.
[00:27:27] Ashley Cuthbertson: I think sometimes we forget as human beings, like we also might need some strategies to support us along the way. Um, just from a human standpoint, as we're changing, literally changing how your brain is thinking and how you are approaching teaching and learning with your kids.
[00:27:41] Bryson Tarbet: For sure. Uh, so you've shared a lot of tidbits today.
[00:27:44] Bryson Tarbet: Um, but you are going to be doing a masterclass inside of that music teacher community or a membership for content specific professional development. Um, so without going too far into the nitty gritty, um, cause I know that's a rabbit hole that would be easy to fall down. Can you share a little bit about [00:28:00] what participants masterclass?
[00:28:03] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yes, I'm super, super excited for our master class together for your community members. So the master class is going to be all about one of the things that teachers are always looking for, like, what is the practical way that this looks like in my classroom? Like, I understand that there's all these things that go in it, but Let me see what it looks like.
[00:28:22] Ashley Cuthbertson: So in that master class, I'm going to actually take the participants through a full general music lesson. Um, that lesson is going to be about the blues, I believe. And so I'm gonna take them all the way through a lesson on the blues is the genre, it's not the goal or the concept. I should say that because again, music is the vehicle.
[00:28:39] Ashley Cuthbertson: So it's going to be a whole lesson that we're going to do all the way through. And then the other half of the master class, our time will be spent. So I'm going to talk a little bit about what I just spent really unpacking what it was that the participants experienced as the students and then connecting it to those big framework pieces that I just shared.
[00:28:54] Ashley Cuthbertson: So in what ways in the lesson, if I, as the teacher, the facilitator have to [00:29:00] utilize a mindset for equity and what was, was I cultivating and affirming learning environment, what were my repertoire choices and why? And then also how did I use the curriculum in a way to be more real world and adjust for the things that are happening?
[00:29:14] Ashley Cuthbertson: Um, in real time with the different teachers. So I'm excited for that. I think it's going to be a really, really helpful for teachers who are looking for just like, what does this look like and then be able to kind of backtrack what are the elements that led to that in result of the lesson. So I'm super excited for that.
[00:29:30] Bryson Tarbet: I am really excited about this. Um, and if you are a community listener there, that our community member that is listening and you don't normally join us live, I highly encourage you to join us live, um, because I actually, I just have to say you might be the best person I've ever seen keep engagement up in a virtual training.
[00:29:46] Bryson Tarbet: So kudos to you for that. And I am really excited for you to get in front of our members.
[00:29:52] Ashley Cuthbertson: Awesome. Yeah, I'm super excited. So come on, come join us. You're not going to want to miss it. I love, love getting to share with people and then you'll walk away with the lesson plan too. [00:30:00] So you'll have it actually written out with different, um, the links and all of the music and things that I shared.
[00:30:05] Ashley Cuthbertson: So if you want to try it, then there you'll, you'll done it as a participant and then you can try it with your students too.
[00:30:10] Bryson Tarbet: Perfect. And we will be sure to put the link to join if you are not currently a member, uh, in the show notes of this episode as well. And if you're listening to us in the future, hello, uh, that member, that lesson, that masterclass, that's what it's called, uh, will be hanging out in our content specific professional development library long after the recording.
[00:30:28] Bryson Tarbet: So Ashley, before we get into learning a little bit about how our listeners can connect with you and learn more about the work that you do, Is there anything that you wish that I would have asked you that I didn't, or any wise words you'd like to leave us with?
[00:30:44] Ashley Cuthbertson: Yes. I think, uh, I think the one thing that I want to leave our, your listeners before we wrap up our conversation is just, you know, so many teachers, especially now, right?
[00:30:56] Ashley Cuthbertson: I think I hate to say post pandemic, but like that [00:31:00] 2020 really rocked our world, right, especially in education. And I think more and more teachers are seeing the need to be able to just do things differently. Traditional ways just don't work for today's learners, nor were they ever supposed to, right?
[00:31:14] Ashley Cuthbertson: Those traditional ways were created for, you know, Students of a different time and era and we're in a different place and more and more. I come across teachers who are like Yes, i'm i'm ready to do this I know my students need something different or even just like the the literal Hey My job depends on this because my numbers are so low my choir is about to get cut like the literal like let's be real Sometimes it's about the numbers of retention and making sure that we have music education for generations to come but also But I also know a lot of, a lot of it, especially in our political landscape, just what's going on in our, we're talking about the U S a lot of teachers also are afraid, they're afraid to say the word culturally responsive or the phrase, I guess, culturally responsive teaching.
[00:31:55] Ashley Cuthbertson: They're afraid to say culture. They're afraid to say diversity. And there's reasons why, right? There are all [00:32:00] these laws and all these things and policies and a lot of pushback of really just doing what I would say is just good teaching. So for anyone that's listening, that maybe that's where you are, right?
[00:32:11] Ashley Cuthbertson: That's, that's one of the. research has found that there are about five different things that kind of stand in the way from teachers who are looking to incorporate more culturally relevant practices, but hold them up. And one of them is just the fear of offense and the fear of pushback. And so if you're a teacher who's listening and you're wondering, like, how do I do this?
[00:32:30] Ashley Cuthbertson: And maybe you're in a community that you know is not going to wholly embrace this, I highly encourage you, first of all, to just get connected to like minded teachers that the internet and communities like yours allow so much more access than they did even five, 10 years ago. For those of us who are looking for our people, looking for just support, you know, when you're the only teacher who's Trying to do things different.
[00:32:53] Ashley Cuthbertson: It can feel like you are a unicorn in maybe a bad way So you got to find your people you've got to [00:33:00] not try to do this work alone And even if you are in a community where there are other people who are thinking like you are We all need community to do this work because systems don't change because the system wants it to change systems change because People who have power to make change create that change in the system So you're you're listening and you're feeling maybe nervous or disheartened I get emails all the time for people saying well, how am I supposed to do this?
[00:33:23] Ashley Cuthbertson: I teach in an area where I literally can't say some of these words Find your communities online find people. I guarantee there's somebody in your area who's also looking for you, too Make yourself visible, but also be clear about what you stand for. So if you're going to say I stand for all students having access, then you're going to need to start doing some things in a different way.
[00:33:45] Ashley Cuthbertson: Don't let the fear hold you back to the point where you know, you're not doing what's best for students. Look for the support to allow you to get that, that, uh, that battery in your back to keep going and to keep pushing for what we all know is. really what's [00:34:00] best for kids. And there are people out there who want to support you and want to have you as a part of this.
[00:34:06] Ashley Cuthbertson: So just make yourself known and be clear about what you, you stand for because the pushback is real. And that's part of being a culturally responsive educator, regardless of discipline, there is going to be pushback. In fact, If there isn't any pushback, I would probably argue you're not going far enough.
[00:34:22] Ashley Cuthbertson: There is going to be pushback. Prepare yourself for it. Make sure you have communities to support you so you know how to navigate those things in a way that allows you to still feel like you're making a difference and that does make a difference. So, I think that's really a really important part of this work that I don't know that we talk about enough is you have to have support to keep going because it can be hard.
[00:34:43] Ashley Cuthbertson: It can be hard.
[00:34:44] Bryson Tarbet: Yeah. Well, Ashley, I am sure that there are plenty of listeners who are ready to learn more and jump in and do, do some work. Uh, so can you let them know where they can learn more about you and the work you do online?
[00:34:58] Ashley Cuthbertson: For sure. Yeah. The [00:35:00] best place is just to go to my website, which is my name, ashleycuthbertson.
[00:35:04] Ashley Cuthbertson: com. Keeping it, keeping it easy for folks. That's where you can find out all about me, the consulting work that I do. Um, another really great thing, there's lots of things on the website. So it's easy to kind of get, you know, down a rabbit hole, looking at lots of different things. A really wonderful thing to do is that I have a webinar series that I'm bringing back.
[00:35:23] Ashley Cuthbertson: And so, uh, I don't know, well, this is coming out in January, but. We'll be, I think, in our second episode, not episode, second session of the webinar series that I'm doing all about how do we create a culturally responsive music program. So definitely, um, register and come and join us. Those webinars, I, I do, I kind of do them on an ongoing basis.
[00:35:43] Ashley Cuthbertson: They're totally free to come join and it's a great place to Meet some other folks who are doing some of this work So if you're someone who's feeling like you're on an island come on and join us in one of those webinars Uh to get to know some people who are similar, but also i'm really teaching in those webinars.
[00:35:58] Ashley Cuthbertson: It's not just fluff There really are [00:36:00] legitimate strategies that i'm sharing and resources that I share And then beyond that we have of course our consulting services and our programs primarily I work typically with schools districts and organizations, but I also periodically have Uh, different things for teachers.
[00:36:14] Ashley Cuthbertson: So, uh, we have some things coming up in the summer. Very exciting for teachers that, um, I'm super, super excited to go deeper with some folks. Um, I'll be announcing that in, actually I'll be announcing that really soon. So I don't know if you're listening to this before the summer, come on my website. I'm sure it'll be all over the place about our, some of our curriculum work that we're going to be doing.
[00:36:32] Ashley Cuthbertson: And then also just being, uh, being on either our email lists. Or just following me on social media is a great way just to stay abreast of the different things that we're doing so that you don't miss when I announce different things that we have going on to support you and then get the book. That's the best.
[00:36:48] Ashley Cuthbertson: If nothing else, grab a copy of, of the book, paperback or ebook at music as a vehicle. com.
[00:36:55] Bryson Tarbet: All right, we will be sure to put those links in the show notes as well. Ashley, as always, [00:37:00] thank you for giving me a lot to think about, and I'm sure there are a lot of, of teachers listening that are having a similar thought.
[00:37:06] Bryson Tarbet: And, you know, you always, you always come in and bring it when, when, when you, when you get to share. Um, so I'm really looking forward to your masterclass. Um, and I'm looking forward to hearing the feedback that we're able to have as we go along. More people start on this journey. So thank you so much for joining us for this episode of that music podcast.
[00:37:23] Bryson Tarbet: If you have not left a review, please do us a favor and leave a review wherever you're listening. That really helps us understand what we want more of and what we need to dive into a little bit deeper. If you would like to join us in that music teacher community, be sure to check out the show notes and description.
[00:37:37] Bryson Tarbet: And as always, in case no one has told you lately, thank you so much for making a difference in the lives of the students that you [00:38:00] teach.
